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lord_denton
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Subject: Random Pirates Piece Discussion   PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:38 pm Reply with quote

Hello everyone! Now that my Welcome Week is done I can get back to the tournament! Cool In the meantime I think it would be healthy to have some non-tournament discussion going on too. So I've been inspired to start something like the Axis & Allies Forumini (a forum that I read often) is doing - a random piece discussion thread! Smile

My inspiration: http://aaminis.myfastforum.org/Random_unit_discussion_about43305.html

I'll use a random digit table thing again (different system though) to pick the first piece.

First, the set: 40603161528323537361987832483235373619878324838397938 09 - Set number 9 Ocean's Edge!

Then, the piece (There's a 100+ pieces in this set so I will use 3 digits): 547686532713409415358569958609 167 - Piece number 167 the Divine Wind!

Divine Wind
http://m.miniaturetrading.com/im/selectCard/card_id/117158/cards_lang/

Feel free to comment on her uses, usefulness, how she stacks up against other ships (especially in her role type and nationality), any personal stories you have where you used her or whatever else you can think of! Very Happy
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woelf
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Subject:    PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:47 pm Reply with quote

Neat idea! They're like mini-reviews for ships where everyone can contribute, but without going through the whole process of writing up and posting a full normal review.
----------------------------


Divine Wind (OE-167) - I can't recall ever using this in a game, but 10 points for L move and rank-3 cannons is about as average as you can get in a ship. The cargo is slightly above the normal for the size of ship, but with that base move and room for only 10 points of crew you're going to have a hard time filling all four spaces.

The ability is an interesting one, but it rarely sees any action because it's so tough to use well. It forces you to have another ship nearby that can attack first, which for the most part pushes this into either deathmatch games or higher (than standard) point builds if you want to get any real use out of it.

With only 10 points to spend, I'd pick HMS Dover over this ship every time. It's slightly larger, has better stats across the board, and it comes with a much more useful ability.
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lord_denton
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Subject:    PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 3:56 pm Reply with quote

I'm glad to hear that you like the idea Woelf! Very Happy I think that your summary covers everything on the surface. This one isn't a game-changer. But I've dug deep to come up with a few more things about her that will at least give her a second thought.

First, unlike the old favorite HMS Dover (favored for a reason - she IS good), she's a Junk so she can shoot through her own masts. That means that crossing her T isn't a "thing" like it is for square-riggers, a "thing" that crafty opponents can exploit or that an owner can walk into if they try ramming or some other maneuver. This means that the Divine Wind is more maneuverable by virtue of not being able to be outmaneuvered so that her guns block each other. After my recent games I think that that would be useful.

Her ability might find more use with the proper fleet mates, even in a low point game. If a gold ship that has good cannons (HMS Half Moon, HMS Prince of Chichester, Maui's Fishhook) or one with a lot of them (Aberdeen Baron , HMS King Edward, dare I suggest the HMS Dover be used for gold?) and the Divine Wind sail as a convoy the ability can be used even without a proper fighting ship. If you give the goldship a captain, especially the 2-in-1 Captain/Helmsmen (Thomas Gunn, Hermione Gold) and save a cargo space, maybe you wouldn't even need a primary gunship.

The Cannons go 3S-3L-3S. Is that a good arrangement? Not having L-range on the ends means that her ability to "chase" is more limited, but having an L in the center means that it has a greater chance of being in range where it is more likely to be out of range.

Now, I think we need to compare her to the HMS Clear Wind, another English 3-mast junk from Ocean's Edge. The Clear Wind moves S+S but has one less cargo. That is the only difference. Which is better? Is there any reason to use both ships? If you have two ships with that special ability, is it synergy because one will always get the bonus or a waste because one always will not (if there's not another ship)? Hmm, I wonder what Woelf thinks...?

woelf wrote:
With only 10 points to spend, I'd pick HMS Dover over this ship every time. It's slightly larger, has better stats across the board, and it comes with a much more useful ability.


What are you trying to say there? Laughing The HMS Dover doesn't have a special ability. Laughing You're giving us the impression that this special ability is worse than no special ability at all. Smile

We'll talk about the Divine Wind for a few more days and then pick a new piece! Very Happy

P.S. I hope to get the first half of the Matchup C1 Battle Report posted today!
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a7xfanben
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Subject:    PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 5:49 pm Reply with quote

I like this idea too. I have the Divine Wind and she was one of my first junks. However, she hasn't been used in a game yet.

lord_denton wrote:
woelf wrote:
With only 10 points to spend, I'd pick HMS Dover over this ship every time. It's slightly larger, has better stats across the board, and it comes with a much more useful ability.


What are you trying to say there? Laughing The HMS Dover doesn't have a special ability. Laughing You're giving us the impression that this special ability is worse than no special ability at all. Smile


We'll see what woelf has to say, but having no special ability makes the ship cost less, giving the Dover an advantage over a ship that costs the same that has an ability that isn't very effective. The Dover would presumably cost 11 or 12 points if she had the Divine Wind's ability (although this guy costs 3, which I think is too much), but you'd rather save the points for something else.
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woelf
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Subject:    PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 6:21 pm Reply with quote

a7xfanben wrote:
lord_denton wrote:
woelf wrote:
With only 10 points to spend, I'd pick HMS Dover over this ship every time. It's slightly larger, has better stats across the board, and it comes with a much more useful ability.


What are you trying to say there? Laughing The HMS Dover doesn't have a special ability. Laughing You're giving us the impression that this special ability is worse than no special ability at all. Smile


We'll see what woelf has to say, but having no special ability makes the ship cost less, giving the Dover an advantage over a ship that costs the same that has an ability that isn't very effective. The Dover would presumably cost 11 or 12 points if she had the Divine Wind's ability (although this guy costs 3, which I think is too much), but you'd rather save the points for something else.
This is exactly what I meant. Very Happy When 99% of the ships in the game have an ability of some sort, having none is essentially like having an ability that says "this ship costs less than normal".

All other things considered equal, I'd much rather have a slightly cheaper/better ship with no ability than have to pay extra for some junky(Pun intended) ability that you'll never use unless you go well out of your way to force it.
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Subject:    PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 6:44 pm Reply with quote

woelf wrote:
All other things considered equal, I'd much rather have a slightly cheaper/better ship with no ability than have to pay extra for some junky(Pun intended) ability that you'll never use unless you go well out of your way to force it.


Indeed.

To continue the conversation (hopefully with more than the three of us), what do people think of this +1 ability? Do you ever use it on purpose? Has anyone ever been able to capitalize on it by having 3 or 4 ships shoot per turn?

I've never really used it. It seems like a lot of the ships with the ability are somewhat average or mediocre, and these two "Wind" ships are good examples.

I find these two similar abilities much more intriguing:

-This ship gets +1 to her cannon rolls for every friendly ship within S of her.

-Friendly ships within S of this ship get +1 to their cannon rolls.

I don't have many ships with these abilities, but I really want to try them out someday.

I didn't know you could adjust the size to whatever you want... I couldn't get it above 29 though.
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Subject:    PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 2:58 am Reply with quote

I could see myself using Divine Wind in sort of a "wild-card" role. With the Captain/Helmsman Hermione Gold (or Thomas Gunn)she could play both the roles of sub-par treasure ship and support fighter.
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codyscheer

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Subject:    PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:18 pm Reply with quote

I've tried to use this ability before (although on a different ship, if I recall). My group tends to play higher points games (around 80) so obviously, the higher the points, the more likely it is that this will come into play. I can't remember what the result of my attempt was (sorry!).

I would also like to point out that sailing Junk exclusive fleets is a blast, and this would be a consideration in the construction of said fleet. Because there are a lot of junkier Junks out there.

*Cough* *Cough* Sea Rat *Cough* *Cough* Good luck getting to the enemy home island with L movement.
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codyscheer

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Subject:    PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:24 pm Reply with quote

Just take this into consideration:

A Junk (no firing arcs) with 3 two rank cannons for only 10 points is not bad AT ALL. Sure you have to fire with another ship first. But it if you can pull it off, that is some CHEAP firepower.

Great choice in a higher point game, I'd say.
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lord_denton
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Subject:    PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 10:50 pm Reply with quote

codyscheer wrote:
I would also like to point out that sailing Junk exclusive fleets is a blast, and this would be a consideration in the construction of said fleet. Because there are a lot of junkier Junks out there.

*Cough* *Cough* Sea Rat *Cough* *Cough* Good luck getting to the enemy home island with L movement.


Hey, hey, Razz the Sea Rat was one of my very first ships (in an OE Special Edition along with HMS King John, Cat's Claw, Raminoidea, El Satle Tribune and La Cordoba) AND she's actually a very good treasure runner for The Cursed, I think. Sure, you can't shoot with her and the ability might not get used, but 5 cargo and a non-S base move for 10 points? She's one of the best Cursed bulk carriers, I think.

Since I'm a tad busy and I don't have my materials readily at hand why don't we have the new random unit be the Sea Rat? It's pretty random right Wink AND there hasn't been a post since the 8th so we're in need of a quick change. This ship can start and maintain SOME discussion for a little while, I think. Thanks Cody! Wink

Sea Rat



To start, other than the rat insignia on the deck she doesn't look like a rat does she? What rats are red? A brown or black junk would've been cool. I guess she's ratty in that she's beat-up looking....
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Subject:    PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 11:37 pm Reply with quote

I think you make a good point of using her as a gold ship. She's definitely not much, but she's ultimately a better choice than this waste of plastic.

Anyway, considering the Cursed aren't known for their gold running capabilities, she definitely shines very brightly in that category. If I could spare another 9 points, I'd definitely throw in the Pestilence as a secondary gold runner. Throw an Explorer on the Sea Rat, and that leaves 20 points for the Baba Yaga with a Captain and Helmsman, or Executioner with a Captain (which could potentially be a better deal, dropping two cannons for an extra cargo space and the Fear keyword). I'm certain that fleet wouldn't fair very well, but it's a fleet.
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codyscheer

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Subject:    PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 3:17 pm Reply with quote

You know, I hadn't thought of that at all. As when constructing Cursed fleets (or attempting to construct, I rarely ever sail them), you never really consider gold running capabilities. As they have very little gold running capability. The sea Rat DOES fill a valuable role that is otherwise left pretty void in the cursed faction.

This could be a viable strategy:

Sea Rat with Explorer

Nightmare with Navigator

So you've got a pretty good gold running ship (for Cursed) with an explorer. Cheap if not the cheapest cursed ship with a navigator to put down some trade currents for an extra S of movement. With L+S movement, its not too bad. Not to mention that once you get a trade current down, the Nightmare could also go get some gold (L movement with 2 cargo leftover after the navigator, or you could leave him at home after making the trade current!). Or you could keep pumping out trade currents for the Sea Rat or your gunship(s).

If you aren't doing a cursed only fleet, you could do even better by using a cheaper ship such as my personal favorite:
El Algeciras with Navigator. I use that combo all the time in my Spanish fleets that I play 80% of the time.
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Subject:    PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:39 am Reply with quote

lord_denton wrote:
Satle Tribune


You mean the Salte El Tiburon ? Laughing

The Sea Rat is definitely one of the best Cursed treasure runners; I've used her a few times and she's done well.

I like the Fallen Angel as well. She's more expensive but she's just about the fastest Cursed ship, plus the ability helps her defensively.

Someday I might proxy in Sskwa'aluk from RtSS to make the Cursed more competitive, but the Sea Rat is one of their best.
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Subject:    PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 2:25 pm Reply with quote

Sea Rat is another middle-of-the-road ship. The cargo space is nice and the base move isn't horrible, but to make it worthwhile you pretty much need to add a Helmsman which eats up one of those spaces. For the Cursed it's a great runner, but even they can still do a bit better, and if this ship belonged to any other nation it would never get a second look.

Personally I'd rather field a ship like Celestine - it doesn't have as much cargo, but it's faster and has a much more interesting ability. The link to Master Scribe is great too, and can help put down a lot Trade Currents in a very short time.

Another thing to consider is that for another 2 points (basically, Set Rat plus its mandatory Helmsman) you can upgrade to the exceptional Grinder , which is one of the best ships in the game, Cursed or otherwise. Playing it as a pure runner may seem like a waste of its stats, but it can certainly do well in the role.


codyscheer wrote:
If you aren't doing a cursed only fleet, you could do even better by using a cheaper ship such as my personal favorite:
El Algeciras with Navigator. I use that combo all the time in my Spanish fleets that I play 80% of the time.
Using that ship to pump out Trade Currents is something that I've never even considered. Not because it's a bad idea, but because that ship screams for a captain - at a mere 6 points (or 5 if you use Luis Zuan ) it's the cheapest gunship in the entire game. Hook up a Flotilla to it and you've got enough speed and firepower to take down top-of-the-line warships that you can't even touch without going several points higher.
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Subject:    PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 9:44 pm Reply with quote

woelf wrote:
codyscheer wrote:
If you aren't doing a cursed only fleet, you could do even better by using a cheaper ship such as my personal favorite:
El Algeciras with Navigator. I use that combo all the time in my Spanish fleets that I play 80% of the time.
Using that ship to pump out Trade Currents is something that I've never even considered. Not because it's a bad idea, but because that ship screams for a captain - at a mere 6 points (or 5 if you use Luis Zuan ) it's the cheapest gunship in the entire game. Hook up a Flotilla to it and you've got enough speed and firepower to take down top-of-the-line warships that you can't even touch without going several points higher.


The absolute best stay-at-home Trade Current ship is Le Coeur de Lion due to the fact that it's the most cost effective way to drop Trade Currents period (using the absolute minimum of 4 points. That might become a staple in most any fleet I play in the future considering just how cheap it is.

And I quite agree, it's a really bad idea to use El Algeciras for anything other than a support fighter.
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