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The No-Duplicates Rule (Master List)
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woelf
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Subject: The No-Duplicates Rule (Master List)   PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:33 pm Reply with quote

Every few weeks a question seems to come up about whether certain crew or ships with similar names can be legally used together or not. In most cases the connection (or lack thereof) between them is apparent enough to easily determine if they are the same, but there are a few pairs that are less than obvious. With that in mind, I put together this list to serve as a reference that players can look at anytime they're not completely sure.

NOTE: This is still a preliminary list. If you know of anything that's missing please post it and I'll update the list. If you disagree with anything that's already on the list, feel free to discuss it, but make sure you've got some evidence (flavor text, etc.) to back it up.

---------------------------------------

CREW:

(Exact) Same Name, Same Spelling, Same Person
-Calico Cat
-Master Bianco
-Bianco’s Haulers
-Various others that need to be listed - no known exceptions(?)

Different Name, Title, or Spelling, Same Person
-Capitan Alarico Castro = Admiral Alarico Castro
-Captain Blackheart = Blackheart = Emperor Blackheart
-Captain Mission = Captain Mysion
-Captain Jack Sparrow = Cursed Captain Jack
-Chief PO Charles Richard = Master CPO Charles Richard = Captain Charles Richard
-Commodore Rhys Gryffin Owen = Commodore Rhys Gryffyn Owen
-Davy Jones = Captain Davy Jones
-Dominick Freda = Dominic Freda
-El Fantasma = El Phantasma
-Elizabeth Swann = Captain Elizabeth Swann
-Hermione Gold = Hermionie Gold
-The Inquisitor = Inquisitor - NOT Inquisitor Blanco - added 08-29-14
-Jack Hawkins = Captain Jack Hawkins
-Lenoir = Monsieur LeNoir - added 04-13-14
-Norrington = Admiral James Norrington
-Sir Edmund Atkinson = Sir Edmund
-Thomas Gunn the Younger = Thomas Gunn = Lord Thomas Gunn


Similar Names, Different People
-Angria -- Yeshagi Angria and Kanhoji Angria are members of the same family but their exact relation is unknown.
-de Alva -- Luis de Alva is the father of Victor de Alva.
-Gunn -- Thomas Gunn the Elder is the father of Thomas Gunn the Younger (see above)
-Laffite -- Jean Laffite and Phillipe Laffite are brothers.
-The Spanish Inquisition -- Inquisitor Sebastian Blanco is an Inquisitor, not The Inquisitor.
-Swann -- Governor Weatherby Swann is the father of Elizabeth Swann.
-Turner -- “Bootstrap” Bill Turner is the father of Will Turner.
-Zuan -- Fidel Zuan and Gaspar Zuan are brothers; Luis Zuan is their nephew.

------------------------------

SHIPS:

Same Name, Same Ship
-Black Pearl – PotC-025, -026, -087
-Deliverance – CC-001/201, OE-022
-El Acorazado – SM-069[SS-001], OE-059
-Empress – PotC-009, -010
-Flying Dutchman – DJC-001, PotC-001, -300
-Harbinger – SM-003[PS-003], DJC-034
-HMS Apollo - RotF-002/201, F&S-003 - NOT R-031
-La Resolucion – SM-077[SS-009/GS-003], OE-060
-Le Bonaparte – DJC-078, OE-073
-Le Coeur de Lion - SCS-202, OE-080
-Neptune’s Hoard – R-002, OE-025
-Santa Lucia - SCS-201, OE-068

Added 10-06-14 - Assumed for now, but unconfirmed (Use your best discretion until noted otherwise
Clear Wind (SCS-011, OE-159)
Divine Wind (SCS-006, OE-167)
East Wind (SCS-007, OE-155)
Floating Stone (SCS-081, OE-212)
Fool's Hope (RotF-001, -200)
HMS Stingray (RotF-006, -204)
L'Afrique (BC-077, OE-078)
Proud Tortoise (SCS-022, OE-36)
Royal Louis (RotF-029, F&S-044)
San Cristobal (RotF-006, -202)
Sea Crane (SCS-015 , OE-164)
Sea Duck (SCS-017, OE-160)
Sea Lion (SCS-013, OE-152)
Sea Phoenix (SCS-016, OE-156) - See also "Same Name/Different Ship" Below
Sea Serpent (SCS-012, OE-148)
Sea Tiger (SCS-014, OE-168) - See Notes Below
Sea Wind (SCS-008, OE-147)
Typhoon (SCS-009, OE-163)
Virtuous Wind (SCS-010, OE-151)
Weasel (RotF-005, -203)

Amity (CC-009, F&S-404)
Cutlass (RU-010, OE-212)
L'Auguste (CC-073, OE-075) - Possible Non-Match
La Ebro (MI-068, FN-053)
Tiger (RU-009, OE-211)
USS Atlanta (FN-076, OE-090)


Different Name, Same Ship
-Asesino de la Nave (SM-078[SS-010/GS-004]) = Santiago (CC-008)
-Baochuan (SCS-300A) = Zeus (OE-300A) - See Notes below - added 09-04-14
-Black Pearl (PotC-025,-026,-087) = Wicked Wench (PotC-028)
-Constitution (R-068) = USS Constitution (OE-86)
-Grand Temple (SCS-002) = HMS Grand Temple (OE-044)
-HMS Bolingbroke (SM-050[ES-010]) = Bloody Throne (SM[PP-375])
-L’Aguila (SM-075[SS-007]) = Eagle (CC-004)
-Lezard = HMS Lizard = Lizard = Lagarto = Sea Lizard = Lizard's Sting (F&S-208, -209, -210, -211, -212, -213)
-HMS Morning Star = Morning Star (x3) = USS Morning Star = Mourning Star (F&S-202, -203, -204, -205, -206, -207)
-Sea Phoenix (SCS-016, OE-156) = HMS Sea Phoenix (OE-052)

-El Ladron = Bunte Kuh* - SM-008
-Raven's Neck = Roter Teufel* - SM-013
-Treachery = Klabautermann* - SM-017
-Batavian Bat = Sturmvogel* - SM-026

*These four ships appear only in the German-language version of the Spanish Main set. Despite the alternate names and flavor texts, for gameplay purposes they are considered the same ships as their English-language counterparts.



Same or Similar Name, Different Ship:
-Concord - R-147 // BC-090 // HMS Concorde (OE-048)
-Divine Dragon - MI-216 // OE-001
-El Algeciras – SCS-067 // OE-067
-El Toro - BC-066 // OE-061
-Executioner - R-007 // DJC-010
-Fancy - CC-019 // PotC-046
-Freedom - SM-012[PS-012] // R-071
-HMS Apollo - R-031 // RotF-002/201, F&S-003
-HMS Diamond - PotC-091 // F&S-040
-HMS Durham - BC-049 // FN-044
-HMS Gibraltar (CC-039) // Gibraltar (RotF-015)
-HMS Nautilus (R-028) // Nautilus (MI-001)
-La Corse – SCS-077 // DJC-077
-Lady's Scorn - SCS-031 // RotF-025 // F&S-046
-La Santa Ana (CC-050) // Santa Ana (SCS-061) - See Notes below - added 09-04-14
-Minuteman - BC-089 // RotF-016
-Needle - OE-207 // RotF-043
-Neptune - PotC-093 // F&S 004
-Nightmare - DJC-021 // DJC-145 // OE-009
-Pestilence - RotF- 009 // F&S-007
-Ranger - CC-003 // PotC-050
-Revenge - SM-007[PS-007, PP-376] // PotC-034
-Saratoga - R-073 // DJC-093 // RotF-036
-Scepter - CC-021/202 // F&S-200
-Scorpion - BC-022 // RotF-011
-Tiger - R-009 // OE-211
-USS Mercury - MI-300 // RotF-093


Unknown/Unconfirmed:
-HMS Granville – BC, FN --- The flavor text suggests a refit to become an icebreaker, but changing from a 3-mast schooner to an icebreaker is a rather extensive change. Most likely it was a different (unseen) ship with the same name.

-Sea Tiger (SCS-014) = Sea Tiger (OE-168) vs. USS Sea Tiger (OE-094) --- Aside from the nationality change, the two Sea Tigers are an exact match in stats and are undoubtedly the same ship. The flavor text for USS Sea Tiger implies a connection, but its stats (and artwork) are quite a bit different from either Sea Tiger which suggest a different ship with a similar name. If USS ST is not a completely separate ship that happens to have a similar name, where does it fit in relation to the OE Sea Tiger?

Notes:
-Baochuan (SCS-330A) vs. Guichuan (DJC-300A)
Historically, “baochuan” was a generic name for a treasure ship, not necessarily a specific ship. Guichuan's flavor text does not refer to Baochuan by name, so the sunken ship that was raised to become the Guichuan could have been any ship of the same class or configuration. The flavor text for Zeus (OE-300A) does refer to Baochuan by name and provides a definitive link between them, so it's safe to assume that Guichuan is a completely independent ship.

-La Santa Ana (CC) vs. Santa Ana (SCS)
These two ships share the same type (4-mast), but their stats are completely different and the flavor text in SCS makes no references whatsoever to the previous version. They’re most likely different ships, and with no definitive evidence to tie them together, they can be treated as such.



----------------------

UNIQUE TREASURES:

-Rum - SM, PotC
-Abandoned Crew - CC, MI --- Duplication of Abandoned Crew is allowed on a "per card" basis, so if a crew appears twice on the card you may use both at once. You may also mix&match between the two different versions of this card, as long as the total number of any given crew token does not exceed the number found on a single card.


Last edited by woelf on Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:54 pm; edited 18 times in total
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Subject:    PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:58 pm Reply with quote

same name, different ships

Divine Dragon - MI 216 / OE 001
Executioner - RU 007 / DJC 010
Fancy - CC 019 / PotC 046
Freedom - SM 012 / RU 071
HMS Apollo - RU 031 / RotF 002, 201 F&S 003
HMS Diamond - PotC 091 / F&S 040
HMS Durham - BC 049 / FN 044
Lady's Scorn - SCS 031 / RotF 025 / F&S 046
Le Coeur de Lion - SCS 202 / OE 080
Minuteman - BC 089 / RotF 016
Needle - OE 207 / RotF 043
Neptune - PotC 093 / F&S 004
Nightmare - DJC 021 / DJC 145 / OE 009
Pestilence - RotF 009 / F&S 007
Ranger - CC 003 / PotC 050
Revenge - SM 007, 376 / PotC 034
Santa Lucia - SCS 201 / OE 068
Saratoga - RU 073 / DJC 093 / RotF 036
Scepter - CC 021, 202 / F&S 200
Scorpion - BC 022 / RotF 011
Tiger - RU 009 / OE 211

old_man


Last edited by old_man on Tue Nov 24, 2009 8:25 pm; edited 20 times in total
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Subject:    PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 7:02 pm Reply with quote

What about the Jade Rebellion junks that were captured by the other nations and released in the Ocean's Edge tins?
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Subject:    PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 7:10 pm Reply with quote

What about the 4 German named ships
different name, but same ship

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Subject:    PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 8:27 pm Reply with quote

colringbk wrote:
What about the Jade Rebellion junks that were captured by the other nations and released in the Ocean's Edge tins?


Only seen one of those, but here it is...

Grand Temple (SCS), HMS Grand Temple (OE)
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Subject:    PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:31 pm Reply with quote

old_man wrote:
same name, different ships
Le Coeur de Lion - SCS 202 / OE 080
old_man


I'm pretty sure that these were established as the same ship. Also, there is the MI USS Mercury Sub, and the SS USS Mercury Windcatcher, which would be seperate.

EDIT: Using Rizz's site, the orginal Le Coeur de Lion (LCDL) as a LE from SCS has this fluff text:

Le Coeur de Lion has her cannons uniquely positioned on deck to achieve higher and longer shot trajectories.

While the rare from OE has this:

Le Coeur du Lion is a mere shell of her former self, barely able to maintain discipline among her crew and sporting more leaks than usable cannons.

The same ship seems to be implied, and a blockade runner to a sloop isn't that drastic of a change.


Last edited by lord_denton on Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Subject:    PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:47 pm Reply with quote

What is the rationale for putting "captain" into the name of certain renditions of certain characters, but not giving them the captain keyword?

edit: and then the PotC set throws a wrench in the works by not even using the captain keyword, and just using the ability text to state who gives move+shoot...
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Subject:    PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 4:52 am Reply with quote

old_man wrote:
same name, different ships...

Good stuff! I didn't realize there were quite so many - the majority I listed were pulled from memory.

I'll work on confirming all of those, and will add them to the list above.
colringbk wrote:
What about the Jade Rebellion junks that were captured by the other nations and released in the Ocean's Edge tins?
Those would all fall under "same name, same ship" category, or in the case of ships like the Grand Temple (as Rizz mentioned) the "different name, same ship" category. I'll add those as well.
old_man wrote:
What about the 4 German named ships
different name, but same ship
Yes - since those "special" ships replaced the standard ones in the set, they would be treated as "different name, same ship".

Do you have a list of their German names and the English-language counterparts? (I don't recall the exact pairings.)

lord_denton wrote:
EDIT: Using Rizz's site, the orginal Le Coeur de Lion (LCDL) as a LE from SCS has this fluff text:

Le Coeur de Lion has her cannons uniquely positioned on deck to achieve higher and longer shot trajectories.

While the rare from OE has this:

Le Coeur du Lion is a mere shell of her former self, barely able to maintain discipline among her crew and sporting more leaks than usable cannons.

The same ship seems to be implied, and a blockade runner to a sloop isn't that drastic of a change.
I agree with that. Visually, a blockade runner is almost identical to a sloop - its main mast is simply made of two pieces instead of one. They're definitely close enough in design for a ship to easily switch from one to the other, and the flavor text supports it.
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Subject:    PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 5:01 am Reply with quote

alanqsmithee wrote:
What is the rationale for putting "captain" into the name of certain renditions of certain characters, but not giving them the captain keyword?
The "Captain" title appeared mostly for flavor text reasons. Not giving someone with the Captain title the move&shoot ability really isn't that much different from giving someone the ability without the title, and there are also a number of crew that are referred to as "captains" in their flavor text despite not having the ability.

If it hadn't been for the handful of abilities that gave a bonus for having a captain crew (as opposed to the Captain keyword/ability), it would have been much less of an issue. Of course, if all of those keywords had been in place from the very beginning, it's likely there wouldn't have been nearly as many crew that had the title but not the ability.
Quote:
edit: and then the PotC set throws a wrench in the works by not even using the captain keyword, and just using the ability text to state who gives move+shoot...
Rotf is where the wrench got thrown in - PotC was the last set released prior to the switch to the Captain keyword (all previous sets used the text form as well).
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Subject:    PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 5:19 am Reply with quote

different name, but same ship
SM 008 EL Ladron - Bunte Kuh
SM 013 Raven's Neck - Roter Teufel
SM 017 Treachery - Klabautermann
SM 026 Batavian Bat - Sturmvogel

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Subject:    PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 5:22 am Reply with quote

woelf wrote:
lord_denton wrote:
EDIT: Using Rizz's site...


OMG, not only is my site referenced once, but the reference is referenced! Wow!
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Subject:    PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 5:45 am Reply with quote

And then... and I've mentioned this before... there are the guys who were captains in previous versions and later, without the flavor text even addressing it, are demoted. *shakes fist*

woelf wrote:
alanqsmithee wrote:
What is the rationale for putting "captain" into the name of certain renditions of certain characters, but not giving them the captain keyword?
The "Captain" title appeared mostly for flavor text reasons. Not giving someone with the Captain title the move&shoot ability really isn't that much different from giving someone the ability without the title, and there are also a number of crew that are referred to as "captains" in their flavor text despite not having the ability.

If it hadn't been for the handful of abilities that gave a bonus for having a captain crew (as opposed to the Captain keyword/ability), it would have been much less of an issue. Of course, if all of those keywords had been in place from the very beginning, it's likely there wouldn't have been nearly as many crew that had the title but not the ability.
Quote:
edit: and then the PotC set throws a wrench in the works by not even using the captain keyword, and just using the ability text to state who gives move+shoot...
Rotf is where the wrench got thrown in - PotC was the last set released prior to the switch to the Captain keyword (all previous sets used the text form as well).
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Subject:    PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:46 am Reply with quote

rizz wrote:
woelf wrote:
lord_denton wrote:
EDIT: Using Rizz's site...


OMG, not only is my site referenced once, but the reference is referenced! Wow!


Yes, kudos to rizz for having one of the few sources for flavor text.

For the Le Cour du lion, it probably went through a minor refit (because a blockade runner's hull is smaller than a sloop's) that included a rearrangement of the rigging. Sort of conflicting with the fluff text, but maybe she had better success as a blockade runner (contrary to the game, where she is a staple in many of my French fleets due to being dirt cheap). Smile
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Subject:    PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 4:59 am Reply with quote

lord_denton wrote:
Yes, kudos to rizz for having one of the few sources for flavor text.


On that note, if anyone is browsing my site, and see flavor text missing, or anything incorrect, and you have or know the correct info, click the bloody handprint on the lower right of every page, and tell me about it.
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Subject:    PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 11:23 am Reply with quote

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that the El Toro from PofBC and the El Toro from PatOE are two different ships that happen to share the same name... Neutral
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