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Calculating the best dedicated treasure runners
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godmason

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Subject: Calculating the best dedicated treasure runners   PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2015 6:20 am Reply with quote

Here's my equation. It takes into account move speed, point cost, and cargo hold. Guns are not counted, as this equation is exclusively for how effective a ship is as a cost-effective treasure runner, not gunships or multipurpose ships. It does not take into account abilities such as ignoring terrain, hoists, or extra actions. Addition of a Helmsman or Navigator can actually improve a ship's score, but some suffer when you try to pad them too much.

Treasure Runner Score (TRS) = (Base Move in Millimeters x Cargo Space) / Point Cost
L move = 83mm
S move = 57mm

Here are some sample ship scores:
Banshee's Cry: 221
L'Intrepide: 112
Jolly Mon: 85 (accounting for an easily calculable change in mobility)
Darkhawk II: 66
Amity: 57
Frontier: 54
Maman Brigitte: 24

I'll soon form an equation for calculating the best gunships, as well as the best multipurpose ships.
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a7xfanben
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Subject: Cool stuff   PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:06 pm Reply with quote

Heh... saw this on reddit and thought it was interesting. I think ranking stuff in Pirates will almost always be subjective, but this is still a very cool framework to look at. I might mess around with some ships at some point in the next month or two and add to the list. Making an Excel spreadsheet would be a great way of doing it.

Probably the biggest caveat is durability - if you have the points available, getting a ship like the Darkhawk II or the Frontier can be much more valuable than the super-fragile one masters.

Gunships should be more difficult. Wink
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godmason

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Subject: Re: Cool stuff   PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2015 10:31 pm Reply with quote

a7xfanben wrote:
Heh... saw this on reddit and thought it was interesting. I think ranking stuff in Pirates will almost always be subjective, but this is still a very cool framework to look at. I might mess around with some ships at some point in the next month or two and add to the list. Making an Excel spreadsheet would be a great way of doing it.

Probably the biggest caveat is durability - if you have the points available, getting a ship like the Darkhawk II or the Frontier can be much more valuable than the super-fragile one masters.

Gunships should be more difficult. Wink

The difficulty will be in ranking abilities, but the process of calculating gun effectiveness is rather easy. Preferred abilities will remain subjective, as it's the dice that decide how durable a turtle ship is against a much larger ship.
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a7xfanben
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Subject:    PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 5:31 am Reply with quote

Le Solitaire TRS=4.88

Laughing

Although, the TRS of the Jikininki and plenty of sea monsters would be 0.

He'e

TRS=3.17

Laughing
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a7xfanben
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Subject:    PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 1:10 am Reply with quote

Any progress on the gunship scoring system? I still find this interesting, though it's difficult if not impossible to come up with a "perfect" formula.

In addition, the durability of treasure runners can be very important. For example, the Frontier has a score of 54, which is less than half the score of L'Intrepide. Sure the Intrepide is a better bread and butter treasure runner (Shocked Laughing), but the Frontier is in her own class.
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godmason

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Subject:    PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:50 am Reply with quote

a7xfanben wrote:
Any progress on the gunship scoring system? I still find this interesting, though it's difficult if not impossible to come up with a "perfect" formula.

In addition, the durability of treasure runners can be very important. For example, the Frontier has a score of 54, which is less than half the score of L'Intrepide. Sure the Intrepide is a better bread and butter treasure runner (Shocked Laughing), but the Frontier is in her own class.
Hoists are entirely different beasts, though. There's a difference between a decent treasure runner that's very cheap and an excellent treasure runner that's expensive. Runners that are meant to be efficient on points are to fit around fleets meant for powerful gunships to hurt other players' chances of winning, while maintaining a fair chance for one's own ships.

As far as a mathematical basis for a point-efficient gunship, I have one. It doesn't account for survivability (compare Constitution to Sautez le Requin ), only for a ships' ability to deal damage over one shoot action at full condition. It doesn't account for abilities or for how good a ship's guns are— only for how good they are relative to the point cost. The higher the score, the better value you're getting for your points.

Economic Shoot Action Potency = (Gun Range in Millimeters * Chance of Hit)/Point Cost. Do this for each and every gun on the ship. I'll include some examples with scores:
- 18.1: HMS Grand Temple
- 15.9: Darkhawk II
- 15.6: Sautez le Requin
- 15.4: HMS Victor
- 14.2: HMS Titan
- 13.8: Grinder
- 13.8: Executioner
- 12.2: Guichuan
- 9.4: Constitution
- 6.9: He'e
- 4.7: Maman Brigitte
- 0.6: Le Solitaire

I'd love to develop a formula to calculate which ships are "best" before considering their keywords, as the numbers above don't reflect advantages like the Grinder's speed or the Darkhawk II's hold space... or that the USS Kettering is utterly superior to Sautez le Requin. It'll probably be a bizarre hybrid of my existing equations. Let me know if you think of any ships with a higher score than HMS Grand Temple.
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a7xfanben
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Subject:    PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:45 pm Reply with quote

godmason wrote:
Economic Shoot Action Potency = (Gun Range in Millimeters * Chance of Hit)/Point Cost. Do this for each and every gun on the ship. I'll include some examples with scores:
- 18.1: HMS Grand Temple
- 15.9: Darkhawk II
- 15.6: Sautez le Requin
- 15.4: HMS Victor
- 14.2: HMS Titan
- 13.8: Grinder
- 13.8: Executioner
- 12.2: Guichuan
- 9.4: Constitution
- 6.9: He'e
- 4.7: Maman Brigitte
- 0.6: Le Solitaire

I'd love to develop a formula to calculate which ships are "best" before considering their keywords, as the numbers above don't reflect advantages like the Grinder's speed or the Darkhawk II's hold space... or that the USS Kettering is utterly superior to Sautez le Requin. It'll probably be a bizarre hybrid of my existing equations. Let me know if you think of any ships with a higher score than HMS Grand Temple.


Thanks for the great response.

I actually went through my Rankings spreadsheet, looking for potential candidates to unseat the HMS GT. When you take the ability of the Blackwatch into the equation, it comes out to 19.04. However, without taking that world-hater ability into account, the score is way lower at 14.7. It really takes into account accuracy, which I still believe is underrated. Speed is very important, but the whole premise of fighting in Pirates is to actually damage or sink the other vessel, not just get there first and miss a bunch of times.

When you take the Longship keyword into account:
Muninn - 15.4
Huginn - 16.3
Naegling - 18.5

Just for fun, if we assume the Naegling could use her ability that turn to get +1 to her gun rolls, her score becomes an astounding 22.96!

Loki's Revenge - 22.24 Shocked

El Monte Cristo - 13.58 without ability, 16.83 with world-hater.

HMS London/HMS Halcyon - 17

HMS Bolingbroke - 14.67

Here's an interesting one, taking into account the Extended Range:
Gibraltar - 43.65 Shocked

It's worth noting that point cost is too important here, as I got 11.4 for L'Intrepide, which is higher than the score for the Constitution (assumed RV version).
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godmason

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Subject:    PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 12:04 am Reply with quote

Very interesting, good info. However, flotillas can't bring all their guns to bear on a single target at once, so I think that they ought to be exempt from most of these calculations. Here's a couple more to think about:

- 9.1: Conquerant (bombardiers were always overpriced)
- 5.3: Nautilus
- 13.2: HMS Endeavour (but given the special ability, it could be considered 26.3!)
- 7.5: Pequod

As you mentioned, I feel like there are some ships that need to be scored both with and without their special abilities. OE La Resolucion is 14.4 without its keyword, and 18 with it. Either way, it's a good option, and one of my regular tablemate's favorite ships, along with Divine Dragon, which is 8.2 without its keyword, and 12.3 with.

Edit: L'Hercule comes in at 7.6, but it keeps that score as it takes damage, though it's still not quite worth its point cost.
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Subject:    PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 12:15 am Reply with quote

godmason wrote:
Very interesting, good info. However, flotillas can't bring all their guns to bear on a single target at once, so I think that they ought to be exempt from most of these calculations.


Actually they can:

The Pirate Code wrote:
-The line of fire for a flotilla’s cannon is not blocked by its own hull or flag.


That being said, they are definitely too powerful for this type of calculation, which doesn't take speed and other things into account. The Extended Range and getting 4 cannons for less than 10 points completely throws off the score heh.

I agree with your other thoughts, though the Endeavour's ability isn't quite as good as Longship since it more resembles Broadsides Attack than actually rolling twice like for Longship. It's an interesting thing to discuss and calculate! Smile
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godmason

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Subject:    PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 2:03 am Reply with quote

That's quite interesting, and I suppose that makes it viable for calculation in this scheme. I'd wager that the Endeavour is still better because it has five masts instead of three, and can hypothetically derelict a ten master with a single shoot action.
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Subject:    PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 2:51 am Reply with quote

godmason wrote:
That's quite interesting, and I suppose that makes it viable for calculation in this scheme. I'd wager that the Endeavour is still better because it has five masts instead of three, and can hypothetically derelict a ten master with a single shoot action.


The Endeavour is better, not the Endeavour's ability. Flotillas are an anomaly, but I'll take any publicity they can get since I still believe they're underrated.
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godmason

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Subject:    PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 5:59 am Reply with quote

a7xfanben wrote:
godmason wrote:
That's quite interesting, and I suppose that makes it viable for calculation in this scheme. I'd wager that the Endeavour is still better because it has five masts instead of three, and can hypothetically derelict a ten master with a single shoot action.


The Endeavour is better, not the Endeavour's ability. Flotillas are an anomaly, but I'll take any publicity they can get since I still believe they're underrated.
I think they can be evaluated by calculating them as a function of the ship they're being towed by. Let's see what we can come up with for equation combos with flotillas and ships.
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Subject:    PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 2:53 am Reply with quote

godmason wrote:
L'Hercule comes in at 7.6, but it keeps that score as it takes damage, though it's still not quite worth its point cost.


That's one of the biggest issues with this type of thing - there are so many contingencies and oddball cases that it becomes difficult to establish what's "better" than something else.
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marhawkman

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Subject:    PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 5:18 pm Reply with quote

I decided to use this formula to evaluate the guns on the 10 masters.

(Gun Range in Millimeters * Chance of Hit)/Point Cost.
L83 S57

As a bit of a cheat sheet when doing this. I made a chart of range/hit:
2S = 228, 3S = 171, 4S = 114, 5S = 57, 6S = 0
2L = 332, 3L = 249, 4L = 166, 5L = 83, 6L = 0

Baochuan - 30
4S: 3.8 * 3 = 11.4
3S: 5.7 * 2 = 11.4
3L: 8.3 * 5 = 41.5
total: 64.3

Celtic Fury - 25
4S: 4.56 * 2 = 9.12
3S: 6.84 * 5 = 34.2
3L: 9.96 * 3 = 29.88
total: 73.2

Delusion - 35
4S: 3.26 * 2 = 6.52
3S: 4.89 * 3 = 14.67
4L: 4.74 * 2 = 9.48
3L: 7.11 * 3 = 21.33
total: 52

Guichuan - 30
3S: 5.7 * 7 = 39.9
2L: 11.07 * 3 = 33.21
total: 73.11

Shui Xian - 25
4S: 4.56 * 1 = 4.56
3S: 6.84 * 4 = 27.36
2S: 9.12 * 2 = 18.24
4L: 6.64 * 2 = 13.28
3L: 9.96 * 1 = 9.96
total: 73.4

Zeus - 23
3S: 7.43 * 10 = 74.35
Total: 74.35

So, four of the ships actually have similar cannon values. Zeus is just a bit better due to being cheapest, and despite having the best guns Guichuan comes in fourth due to it's cost. Cost-wise, Delusion and Baochuan are worst as gunships.... which is weird because they have the most L range cannons. But their cost is what gets them.

also... apparently su(ck) is a banned word here?
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a7xfanben
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Subject:    PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:35 am Reply with quote

Indeed, point cost is a huge factor in almost all cases. It's a ship's biggest attribute in games of just about any fixed size (even 300+ points).

Based on the ships alone, Zeus has to come out on top. However, it's crazy how close the top 4 are.

Thinking about crew a little bit, one of the things I like most about the Baochuan as a gunship is putting Chang Pao and Kian Ng aboard. The more cannons a ship has, the more world hater benefits you. Ng allows the Baochuan to potentially take on many ships at once, especially if they're lightly crewed. Combined with an extra action, the Baochuan can be rather formidable, though like the Delusion (or all of the 10 masters to a degree) she's best as a super-expensive hybrid.

Despite my rough history with 10 masters, I'd love to see the Baochuan in the World game.
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