Subject: Pirates: Back to War (Player-Made Set) Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:31 pm
I've been working on my own set for a few months now and have developed it enough so that I am opening it to potential revisions.
Some Characteristics of this Player Made Expansion:
-There will be approximately 400 new pieces in this set; 30 pieces (either 18 ships and 12 crew or 17 ships and 13 crew) for each faction and then 100 for various odds and ends (UT, Events, Equipment, Generic Crew, LE's, etc.) The factions will appear in the order they were released except for the French, which are the star players.
-The French get the #001 piece.
-The Netherlands form the Super Rare pack. Presuming I finish this set, my next step will be to level them up to a major faction.
-The Jade Rebellion returns. Although this was a fictional creation by Wizkids I'd rather use the Jade Rebellion as a nation then use the flags of Qinq China or the Tokugawa Shogunate or the Choseon Dynasty collectively. The Jade Rebellion can field its powerful 6-masted junks once more.
-Other familiar factions include United Kingdom, France, United States, Barbary Corsairs, Mercenaries, Pirates, Spain, and the Cursed.
-I never felt like Vikings belonged in Pirates so they've been removed. However, to take the place of the Nordic faction is Denmark, which will be significantly cheaper and perhaps a bit easier to play than the Vikings. Denmark will be more orientated towards combat and treasure hauling by boarding/touching other ships than other factions. The Danish are a major faction in this set.
-This will be a historical fiction set, there will be numerous references to historical figures and events within the flavor texts but as for the pieces themselves I count only 3 which were real. I wanted to make a clean split from the Pirates storyline, so I avoided mentioning its characters (Hawkins, Phantasma, the Cat, Gunn, etc.) The Cursed are present only to prevent them from being shafted.
-Time frame: Highlighting from the French Revolution (1789) to the end of the Napoleonic Wars (1815) but continues to make references until around the time of the American Civil War (1865) and conversely, the Battle of Gravelines (1588). Conflicts mentioned so far include: Franco-Quasi War, First Opium War, Peninsular War, the French Revolution, the Napoleonic Wars, and vaguely the Seven Year's War.
I will attempt to post the pieces created so far whenever I have the time and if this sparks interests on the forum, but I repeat that I plan to only revise pieces that are either flat-out game breaking or utterly useless where unintended. I have completed pieces for the French, Spanish, and British, and am working on finishing the Pirates.
I'm glad that you have embarked on such an ambitious project, and since I'm one of those people that is constantly starting things and never finishing them (including revisions to Pirates) I encourage you not to get discouraged if you don't seem to attract interest at first, since merely following a major project is a hard enough task as it is for people to do in my experience.
I think your scattering of the timeline reflects what Pirates has always been like with the time jumping. The Vikings seemed to have belonged to an earlier age.
It seems that imageshack does not like Windlass font, for from my point of view much of the text was telescoped...no matter. Onwards! [As a side note I am yet to come up with the graphic imaging for these ships-I hope to find a way to make realistic ships...that will take some time...]
Enter the French:
The French are fully rigged for battle with powerful four and five masters, but if you look at the crew, you will notice that many are auxiliary (that is, non-French characters). Historically the French Navy had been crippled by the Terror as many senior sailors and officers had been executed, which was worsened by the tactic of disabling the sails over actual hull damage, a tactic for only the skilled.
Introducing pieces #001-#004 [the preview button isn't showing these pictures so I'm going to have to hope you can see the first 4 ships]:
#001 is the French answer to El Garante; this ship is meant for large-scale deathmatches with its already-powerful cannons which don't require much to be near deadly. Unfortunately, it may need its point cost of 22 increased by one or two (Woelf or some other veteran point can confirm?) because unlike El Garante it has all 2's and 6 cargo space. However, this may be a "Le Favori" and "HMS Frolic" case where ships cost the same amount for virtually the exact same stats EXCEPT Le Favori has more than 2X the cargo space.
#002, as Lord_Stu kindly pointed out, is a "shock-and-awe" kind of ship. Although this ability isn't the Eternal ability, the fact that without a canceller the ship can't be towed and used against you is a nice bonus. It's cannons aren't 100% powerful (there is a random 3L in the middle), but it has a good speed with a helmsman (S+S+S) and 6 cargo for good stuff.
#003 is a very unusual treasure ship. We've seen a similar ability on El Buscador (if an enemy ship is within S she gets +S to her base move), but never on a friendly ship. Her cannons and her means that she can act as a hybrid treasure runner/combat ship (all 3S's). This may be a dark horse for treasure running with no clear polarization towards either treasure running or combat, so ultimately it's your call.
#004 is a "um...okay" ship. Not really fast, not really slow. Not really a bad-aiming ship, not really a crack shot aiming ship. It's ability is more for beginners or getting Wesley Samson (a British crew- will explain exactly why he's a really formidable crew when I unveil the British) aboard.
EDIT:
-Le Napoleon now costs 24 points in order to offset the greater capacity and cannons (and crew variety) than the Spanish.
Last edited by the_grandmaster on Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:58 am; edited 3 times in total
EDIT: Oops, was my first post not supposed to come between your first and second? Because if that's the case I can delete it and repost it so everything is concentrated together. If this is your big thread, you might want to reserve several of the first posts to make things easier when you edit later on. This site has a serious problem with long posts, and it keeps clipping them when you type.
Last edited by lord_denton on Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:10 am; edited 1 time in total
#005, The Patriot, is intentionally pushing the envelope to the point it is near-broken (if it is not already...). S+L move, 4 2'S cannons, a powerful ability, and 6 cargo, this ship is better than its British counterpart by 1 cargo space, and it is linked to a decent crew (Ardeau is a captain with SAT ability). If by chance this set was made into an actual expansion, I'd recommend this fella being as common as La Monarca...which I am yet to pull!
#006, the Insurgent, is a personal favorite of mine. The ship did exist, and during the Franco-Quasi war she fought an engagement against the Constellation, which disabled and damaged her to the point her captain reported to his superiors that he had been attacked by a two-deck ship of the line. I do not know his fate, however.
#007, Eylau. The battle that Marshal Ney cried, "All a Massacre for nothing!" Players may be tempted to say the same for this ship. She has a decent ability, good cannons, and really sweet point cost...but then you see the speed. A slow lumbering thing, but at 9 points she's certainly not the worst ship out there.
#008, "The Song of Marseilles" may be one of the best "Friendly Ships within S" out there. She has average speed, average cargo space, but her cannons are good no matter what the occasion.
EDIT:
-Le Patriote has been revealed to be too cheap; it now costs 13 points.
Last edited by the_grandmaster on Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:20 am; edited 1 time in total
<If you didn't see the edit it my second post, you might want to read that, the_grandmaster>
First, those cards look really nice. Now, is this meant to be compatible with the other expansions? If so, my instincts tells me Le Napoleon needs to be more expensive (not sure how much, though). If it's not meant to be compatible, and now depending more greatly on what else there is in store in this set (especially if there is a lot of big cargos in this set), I think it needs to cost more. That's serious firepower. And while I suppose it will be hard to fit in many ships in a standard 40 point fleet (assuming 40 points is the ballpark range for points in an average game) just one ship, like, say the two point Le Couer du Lion, will give this ship rank one cannons, which would mean only a one would miss (sorry I need to reaffirm myself here... I haven't played in a LONG time.) when shooting. That's serious firepower.
The Charlotte (going left to right, then down with my review) has a TON of cargo… Just saying. It might be hard to maintain balance and choose between multiple, well balanced ship with such a high base speed, cargo and ability. I guess the cost helps compensate for that. Again, it depends if 40 points is standard.
La Liberte is a pretty nasty ship (the word “nasty” is a compliment for a fighting ship)… Perhaps she is pretty fairly priced. I think the cargos on these bad boys(girls) could afford to be dropped a point, otherwise they start to compete with gold ships (or maybe they should… anyway, it’s your call). As a
somewhat-related question, do you think of 5-masters as being representatives of frigates or Ships of the Line in this game? I’ve formed my opinion that they are meant to represent frigates more so than SOTL (despite what the artwork suggests, I think more so in the game’s terms), since Pirates would never be dealing with SOTL, especially in somewhat backwater, colonial coastal areas which Pirates seems to suggest the games take place. But maybe you think of them more so as SOTL in this expansion. Just curious.
La Fraternite is pretty fairly priced, I’d say. Again, the cargo seems high, but then again you need to cram in special crew on her. But her point cost limits her a little bit in that department… If you fill up each space, each crew evens out to a little less than 3 points each.
Overall, nice work.
This expansion is meant to be compatible with the other sets, and I intended to create a memorable set similar to that of the Revolution except on a much grander scale WITHOUT creating seriously game-breaking pieces. I attempted to model point costs based of other fan based sets (rizz's, Ax7fanben's, mr_awesome's, and masterandcommander's) for example, but using Lopirate builder some were just plain low. Hopefully woelf will read this before I get to Spain because La Roca is seriously dangerous... As for the cannons, you are correct.
Quote:
The Charlotte (going left to right, then down with my review) has a TON of cargo… Just saying. It might be hard to maintain balance and choose between multiple, well balanced ship with such a high base speed, cargo and ability. I guess the cost helps compensate for that. Again, it depends if 40 points is standard.
I was thinking of a La Vengeance looking Schooner with La Santa Isabel's capacity when I was making that one.
Quote:
...think the cargos on these bad boys(girls) could afford to be dropped a point, otherwise they start to compete with gold ships (or maybe they should…anyway, it’s your call).
I know the French made grand SOTL, which I tried to reflect in cargo. As a side to note to all, this set will contain many ships with nice cargo spaces but with smaller ships bad cannons.
Quote:
As a
somewhat-related question, do you think of 5-masters as being representatives of frigates or Ships of the Line in this game? I’ve formed my opinion that they are meant to represent frigates more so than SOTL (despite what the artwork suggests, I think more so in the game’s terms), since Pirates would never be dealing with SOTL, especially in somewhat backwater, colonial coastal areas which Pirates seems to suggest the games take place. But maybe you think of them more so as SOTL in this expansion. Just curious.
I'm definitely committing this to SOTL; I don't know what rates they'll be, but definitely at least 74's. I once heard that a pirate assaulted a SOTL, so I'm going to use that as a jumping board. Or, I can say the pirates captured an Indiamen (which highly resemble SOTL). Anyhow, many of the stats seemed to balance out as the set developed.
Thank you for commenting.
EDIT: I saw your second post. It is your choice, I'm still not certain how much attention this will get.
I wasn't able to use the Windlass font in my set, either... oh well.
I usually think of five-masters as SOL's (SOTL's, whatever), but I am, of course, biased towards the larger ships. However, if you count the guns on the ships, you'll see that a large handful of the four- and five-masted ships have at least 64 guns (with the HMS Titan and HMS Lord Algernon with 90 apiece). If I remember correctly, the Lady's Scorn (a four-master from ROTF) has 68! An interesting point, especially considering that aesthetically some of the American five-masters have way too many guns, two main gun decks where there should be one. Another unexplained mystery Wizkids gave us .
The Charlotte makes me think of a beefed-up HMS Dover - a great multi-purpose ship. Le Patriote would certainly be overused if she was released, too deadly not to use her! The five-masters look good, too.
Was the falcon/eagle/etc. icon at the lower left a default option, or does it have some significance to the set?
I look forward to seeing more .
P.S.- It's a7xfanben, though everybody seems to get that confused.
I was able to get it to work, but the problem is that in some of the pictures it didn't roll so smoothly. What went wrong with your fonts?
The eagle was a symbol of Imperial France; just how Wizkids used the Star in PotR for the United States I am reciprocating in kind.
Ah-I didn't know about the symbol. That fits nicely, then.
When I tried to transfer my set from a Microsoft Word document to Pojo forums, Pojo sort of rejected it. I don't know enough about the formatting to say much else, it's just that they don't have the Windlass font as a font option (although maybe they should, if only for that forum).
Interesting stuff so far. It's always neat to see what people come up with in their own custom sets.
As for the details, I agree with some of the comments above. If you intended for these to be used alongside existing items, either the cargo holds need to go down or the point costs need to go up (possibly both) for several of these.
001 Le Napolean - compare this one to El Garante to see how underpriced it is. This ship has more cargo space and every one of its cannons is a rank better, yet it only costs 1 point more. Granted, it's not going to be able to gain as much of a bonus from the ability, but then again it doesn't exactly need as much either to justify the cost.
002 La Liberte - that "cannot be captured" line in this one's ability concerns me. If this could not be sunk OR could not be captured it would be okay, but combining those too is a bit much at almost any point cost. True it's not Eternal, but it some ways it's better - you can't get rid of an Eternal ship permanently without a canceler, but you still have at least the option of capturing it to keep it away from your opponent. Plus, if you do sink it goes away for a while before you have to deal with it again. With this one, if it's equipped with a shipwright and an extra action crew it can be right back in your face almost immediately, and without a way to cancel it and sink it there's no possible way to keep it down for good.
005 Le Patriote - compare this one to HMS London, which is already a tremendously good ship for its cost. This one has more cargo space, a better base move, and a potentially better ability yet it costs exactly the same. Either the stats need to come down a bit, or the cost needs to go up.
The rest look fairly good as-is, though. Maybe a little extra testing and tweaking would be needed, but no major issues jump out.
@A7xfanben: try using MS Powerpoint and copy and paste into paint to save it as a picture; that should do the trick.
I'm a bit hesistant to release the next four because these are the treasure running ships that therefore don't have so excellent cannons, in contrast to the first 8. However, there's much better coming up after them, so I will reveal them:
#009 is named in honor of Talleyrand; if you haven't heard of him, look him up. He has an interesting government streak. This ship is one of the more accurate treasure runners out there, but this one's really, really fast.
#010, in case you didn't read the opening post, tells people who have the ship and not the SR pack that "yes, there are the Dutch in this expansion. You just need to find them". A bit of an awkward ship with strange cannons but good speed.
#011 is a bit similar to the HMS Rye from SCS: a good ship cancelling other abilities before you main forces arrive. Better yet, this ship works as a good combat ship in low-point games.
#012 is a small bad ship...at first. It's true this ship only has a 33% chance of hitting each turn, but you're looking at L+L speed, immunity to Odin's Revenge, and a treasure-supportive ability.
Just as I was about to hit submit I see Woelf's remarks, to which I will make the following edits to the ships of concern (which have also been remarked by the other readers of this thread):
001 will now be priced at 26 points, that of the HMS Dreadnought. EDIT: Changed to 24 points to be reasonable.
002, I don't want to change the ability, but I will come up with some effective counter later on in development.
005 now costs 13 points in order to make it more expensive than the HMS London yet the better ship over the yet-to-be-unveiled HMS Patriot.
Thank you Woelf, A7xfanben, and Lord_Denton for you help in balancing the 8 ships revealed so far.
Since I just finished Pirates and therefore can afford to go a bit faster, here's 8 pieces in one post:
Presenting #013-016:
#013 might be revised to be 9 points. When you compare her to El Pulpo at 10 points, La Jacquerie seems perhaps a point or two cheap.
#014 is a bit fairer version of Banshee's Cry, as it has similar stats except it has a point adding but relatively useless ability.
Before I move on to the next 3 I should mention that most factions received a submarine, a flotilla, and a fort. There are exceptions (you will see for the Mercenaries and Jade Rebellion they get more or less of these).
#015 is an interesting flotilla...but I just realized I meant her to be 9 points, not 6 points. Some players will notice that flotillas now have the S/T move. One thing I felt should be done for flotillas is that they should be able to "drift" in a random direction when not towed (this is an action of the player's choosing), which results in the flotilla being moved S in a direction chosen by the player to the left.
#016 is a submarine. Now, a submarine in this expansion may or may not fit well; if I recall correctly Fulton (the same creator of the Clermont; worked for a time with Napoleon on creating a submarine [that plan failed]). Therefore this is a "what if" if Fulton had succeeded. It's speedier than it is dangerous; only 1 cannon is accurate. This one's better left submerged.
I hope you enjoyed the last four combat pieces for France!
Now for the crew and the fort (which has been bumped up to rare as many of these forts are powerful):
#017's ability is a bit confusing at first, so let me clarify: the "docked" refers to the fact you are physically touching the island (you still can't be given repair actions and take treasure if hostile to it). It's cannons aren't great but this fort's going to prove difficult to knock out if you don't position your ship correctly. By the way, the fort ability just tells you that it's a fort.
#018 gives France two great abilities in one sweet package; to my knowledge France has only two crew with the extra action on a 5 or a 6, and neither has the captain ability. Plus the fact he grants +1 cargo space while aboard's nice.
#019's also an interesting crew; need to protect that island containing the game breaking gold coin? Montague ensures that the ship drops anchor immediately and that he slips onto the island. He's a bit pricey (and is also apparently the long-lost brother of Moreau based on artwork), but if you need to ship a marine fast he's the man for the job.
#020 looks significantly overpriced, but that's if you are not reading the ability correctly. It's not one of those "once per turn" abilities. It's every time you touch a ship. How can this apply? Why, get a switchblade and see what happens...
The next batch of crew introduces a new ability, a familiar ability from RV/SM, and three auxiliary characters (making it four for France if you count Montague as he's from Quebec).
#021, Inspector Jacques, brings the old "derelict teleport" ability back into the game, and this time to another nation besides Pirates, the USA, and Britain. Based on some research, the card art isn't anachronistic; the earliest Kepis existed in the 1840s, definitely in context except that "the Emperor" is vague [reference to Napoleon III not Napoleon I here].
#022 was an unfortunate case in which I could not find a Danish-esque portrait to incorporate, thus I reversed Phillipe Jordan from F&S to create a distinct crew. You're unlikely to come up with much use for the second part of his ability, but if the finalized Danish crew are to your liking then he might be a favorite.
#023...want an angrier, scowling version of Vicomte Jules de Cissey with a powder wig? Here's your answer. Although it may seem that many aristocrats were purged during the Terror it seems that this was but a fraction of all French aristocrats (according to one book for causes of the 1848 French February Revolution), hence his presence.
#024, Surrier's like Montague in that he can be really handy...need just one more S move to get to that crippled Zeus? Here's to both a helmsman and an S boarder!
Cards Numbers #025-#028:
New Keyword:
Generic: You may use multiple copies of the card in your fleet; unless the card has an ability that is stackable pieces do not stack. In order to make it more playable, crew with this keyword that cost more than 2 points have their point costs reduced by 1.
#025, the Guard Seamen, is an actual soldiering troop from the Napoleonic Wars (it wasn't an invention for Napoleon: Total War), though they fought more land than sea battles.
#026's picture came out poorly but it brings a more portable way to increase funds if needed.
#027 introduces a new ability that is a spin off from the ability to choose which mast is eliminated when you hit an enemy ship; this time it's crew.
#028 was based on Lopirate Utilities off of the Glorious Treasure; the crew might need to have its stats vamped up by 1 since it's a portable ability that can be used anywhere, and especially comes in handy when your DJC Le Bonaparte gets pinned by your opponent's DJC Le Bonaparte.
I just realized that I had miscounted the number of Auxiliary characters there's actually 5: 1 Swiss, 1 Danish, 1 German, 1 Russian, and 1 Canadian.
This brings the French faction to a near close; tomorrow brings the one other named crew whose portrait has not been revealed but has been mentioned (check the earlier cards to see which one if you're in the mood ) and one final generic crew which combines several abilities in one (and is rather convenient in costs). This will presumably mean that tomorrow's only two pieces to be revealed, but it's a cut off point.
Next faction after France is the United Kingdom. In case you think that then next two crew are disappointing, the British get another good HMS Titan-Algernon class warship and an Aberdeen Baron class treasure ship, to say nothing of the several four-masted square-rigged sips...
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Now, is this meant to be compatible with the other expansions? If so, my instincts tells me Le Napoleon needs to be more expensive (not sure how much, though). If it's not meant to be compatible, and now depending more greatly on what else there is in store in this set (especially if there is a lot of big cargos in this set), I think it needs to cost more. That's serious firepower. And while I suppose it will be hard to fit in many ships in a standard 40 point fleet (assuming 40 points is the ballpark range for points in an average game) just one ship, like, say the two point Le Couer du Lion, will give this ship rank one cannons, which would mean only a one would miss (sorry I need to reaffirm myself here... I haven't played in a LONG time.) when shooting. That's serious firepower.
